N.B. Some of the procedures used by Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses for handling special relief funds have changed since the year 1997, which was the year Joy and I ("Plesion") debated the issue of the nature of the relief ministries operated by Jehovah's Witnesses.
___________________________________________________
Subj: JWs Relief Ministry 1
Date: 97-04-27 03:00:14 EDT
From: Plesion
Joy asks:
> I was wondering ... what about the reg. WT policy on feeding
> the hungry and abused. Does the Watchtower Society have
> any programs to help the needy, and the hungry?
> (referring to
non-JW's)
Plesion responds:
Our preaching and teaching the Kingdom of God is an outreach to the hungry and abused so that any who show appreciation for the truth of God's Word are indeed supported with gifts of necessities (food, clothing, medicine, shelter) when such are sent into disaster areas by relief teams organized entirely by JWs who do all the logistical work entirely without the support of a bureaucracy, this so that there is no body of men and women whose livelihood is made off a percentage of the funds that Witnesses volunteer to meet a particular crisis. And when the relief teams have begun ministering to the needs of their spiritual brothers and sisters and it is seen that a surplus of relief supplies and manpower is available, then the unbelieving public is aided. This has involved giving not only food in great quantities to unbelievers (non-JWs), but has also involved the labor of many volunteers in some regions for the rebuilding or erecting shelter (homes) of unbelievers. This has happened in foreign countries and in the US. Examples of this are common. We saw it Homestead, FL, in Charleston, SC (areas that received hurricane- disaster relief), in Albany, GA where many homes were rebuilt by the unpaid labor of JWs who did construction work for many days in Albany on homes of people who were not JWs then or now. But make no mistake. Our first concern is to accomplish a service (ministry) for bringing relief to our brothers and sisters. This is Scriptural, as you can see from how Paul organized a famine relief effort, a ministry for the holy ones in Judea. Paul did not organize it with an unbelieving public in mind. The world of unbelievers will continue to experience need for physical relief measures, and in such sheer numbers that it would exhaust the resources of a few millions of JWs should they think that it is their business to give relief even handedly "across the board," as it were, by not making distinctions among victims. So, we do make a distinction as to who should get first and sure attention, and we make the distinction by answering the question "Who among the victims are Jehovah's Witnesses?" And as stated before, when once they are cared for, then, as is quite often the case, much relief is given to non-JWs.
Joy asks:
> Would a Jehovah's Witness be at liberty to support
> an organization such as World Vision, or Compassion
> International?
Plesion responds:
What percentage of the funds given over into the hands of those agencies actually goes to the direct purchase of relief supplies? With Jehovah's Witnesses, it is 100 percent. Typical among many relief agencies is that only a small percentage of donated funds actually buys necessities that are distributed to victims. Have you read a disclosure of how the funds are used by those orgs. you named? Can you share that information with us?
We know our funds will do much more for those whom we intend to get benefit from the funds than would be the case if we had to pay salaries of those in a bureaucracy composed of professional relief-providers.
Subj: JWs' Relief Ministry 2
Date: 97-04-27 03:01:09 EDT
From: Plesion
Joy asks:
>Do the local Kingdom Halls have food kitchens for
> the needy in their neighborhoods? Or for those
> who may come to the JW's for help?
Plesion responds:
Paul tells us that the primary purpose of our providing a physical relief ministry is that those getting the relief are going to render thanksgiving to God's name--and that is because we are primarily engaged in helping believers and those who are giving convincing evidence that they are repenting and are turning around from their practice of moral and spiritual badness. Unless a disaster strikes in our neighborhood, soup kitchens are not going to be required for the assistance a congregation gives such ones as listed above. This means that until disaster strikes, there is not a high profile presence of Witnesses giving assistance to others. But should someone who is not one of JWs approach one of JWs because he knows the one he is approaching is a Witness, then we would have to weigh the reasons why an unbeliever has chosen to approach a Witness for relief. Is he convinced that we can help him physically and spiritually? Does he qualify for governmental assistance? Is he in habitual need because he is a habitual drunkard or drug addict? If he is such, does he now want to use his life to bring glory to God's name? But if we were to organize a soup kitchen and barracks for indiscriminately giving physical relief to whosoever applies, will we not be getting a high percentage of those who will not benefit themselves by the spiritual help offered him by us? Would we not simply be making it easier for such ones to use whatever money they have in order to buy alcohol or drugs to feed their morally and spiritually defiling habits? We will not aid him to have a feeling of security for which he does not thank God because he is still practicing moral badness, and he doing so with less cost to himself. He should be shown "tough love" by our making conditional any physical relief we give him, and we condition it upon whether or not he is making convincing demonstration that he is benefiting himself morally and spiritually by those who can teach him the truths of God's Word. Then he will give thanks to God--there will be an increase of thanksgiving to God.
Subj: JWs' Relief Ministry 1
Date: 97-04-30 01:58:02 EDT
From: Plesion
Hello, Joy,
I will yet comment on your errors as to what you feel a Christian relief ministry should do, but will do so in a few days. The pace of the family business (my brother and mine) has picked up so in the last week that I am not able to do as much reading in the last few days as I would like to. Be patient; I will post more later. But here is partial answer:
*** g93 1/8 17 Things Hurricane Andrew Could
Not Destroy ***
Many non-Witness spouses and neighbors benefited
from the help offered by teams of Witness repairmen.
*** g93 1/8 18 Things Hurricane Andrew Could
Not Destroy ***
Her Witness told of his non-Witness neighbors whom
he checked on each night. They said they were OK.
On the fifth day, the wife broke down and wept. "We
don't have any diapers for the baby. We're low on baby
food. We don't have enough food and water." The husband
needed five gallons [20 L] of gasoline but could not get it
anywhere. That same day, the Witness brought all they
needed from the Kingdom Hall relief depot. The wife
cried with gratitude. The husband gave a donation
toward the relief work.
*** g93 1/8 19 Things Hurricane Andrew Could
Not Destroy ***
Ferm¡n Pastrana, an elder from the Princeton Spanish
Congregation, reported that seven families in his congregation
of 80 Witnesses had lost their homes entirely. What remedy
had he suggested to his fellow Witnesses? "Grieve if you need
to grieve. But then don't sit around and mope. Get active
helping others, and, to the degree possible, go out in the ministry.
Don't miss our Christian meetings. Solve what can be solved, but
don't fret about what has no solution."
As a result, Witnesses were soon preaching and taking relief
boxes from house to house. Andrew had not blown away their
zeal.
*** g93 1/8 20 Things Hurricane Andrew Could
Not Destroy ***
Reactions of the Press. Even the media noted how well the
Witnesses were organized. The Savannah Evening Press
carried the headline "Jehovah's Witnesses Find They Are
Welcome in South Florida," and
The Miami Herald declared:
"Witnesses Care for Their Own--and Others."
It stated: "No one in Homestead is slamming doors on the
Jehovah's Witnesses this week--even if they still have doors
to slam. About 3,000 Witness volunteers from across the
country have converged . . .
....
The same report continued: "There's no bureaucracy. There
are no battling egos. Instead, workers seem impossibly cheerful
and cooperative no matter how hot, grimy or exhausted." How
was that explained? One Witness answered: "This comes from a
relationship with God that motivates us to demonstrate our love
for others." That was something else that Andrew could not take
away, the Witnesses' Christian love.--John 13:34, 35. ("g" before
a date is reference to Awake! magazine.)
Subj: JWs' Relief Ministry 2
Date: 97-04-30 01:59:48 EDT
From: Plesion
*** g93 1/8 20-1 Things Hurricane Andrew Could
Not Destroy ***
A volunteer there reports: "So we received a whole truckload of
drinking water. We immediately included this among the other
foodstuffs that we were sending to the distribution centers at the
Kingdom Halls. It was shared with the brothers and with the
neighbors in that area who were in need." A paper company in
Washington State donated 250,000 paper plates.
*** g93 1/8 21 Things Hurricane Andrew Could
Not Destroy ***
Kitchens and feeding lines were also opened on the Kingdom
Hall grounds, and anybody was welcome to come for aid. Even
some of the soldiers enjoyed a meal and were later observed
dropping donations into the contribution boxes.
*** g93 1/8 21 Things Hurricane Andrew Could
Not Destroy ***
While the men were busy fixing houses, some of the women
were preparing meals. Others were out visiting any people they
could find in order to share with them the Bible's explanation of
natural disasters and also to give away boxes of relief supplies to
those in need. One of these was Teresa Pereda. Her home was
damaged, and her car windows were smashed--yet the car was
loaded with relief boxes ready for her neighbors. Her husband,
Lazaro, was busy working at one of the Kingdom Halls.--
Ecclesiastes 9:11; Luke 21:11, 25.
*** g90 2/22 20 Sudden Destruction!-How Have
They Coped? ***
The following weekend as many as 400 Witness relief
workers were on hand. Altogether, work was done on the
roofs or in the yards of about 800 families, including many
who are not Witnesses.
*** w94 2/15 6-7 Are Jehovah's Witnesses a Cult? ***
And they do not live in communes, isolating themselves
from relatives and others. Jehovah's Witnesses recognize
that it is their Scriptural responsibility to love and care for
their families. They live and work with people of all races
and religions. When disasters strike, they are quick to
respond with relief supplies and other humanitarian
assistance.
Joy, did you enjoy the material above? I know it did not address Albany, GA. My brother and his family were able to travel to Albany, GA and help repair some damaged homes. Some of the materials assigned his team was used on homes of non-Witnesses. He does not have a total of how many non-Witness homes were so repaired, because he did not co-ordinate the teams. But he does not believe his team was all that unusual. I have heard other reports from friends that non-Witness homes were repaired.
Joy, as to comment one elder you know made, it is an unhappy thing to see his error in print. Why don't you get back to him and correct him with the quotes you can show him, then report back to us if he is still of the same opinion or not.
Plesion
Subj: To Ilvu pt 1
Date: 97-05-03 01:10:21 EDT
From: Plesion
Hello, Joy.
Joy quotes me:
> Plesion:
>
>> We know our funds will do much more for those whom
>> we intend to get benefit from the funds than would be
>> the case if we had to pay salaries of those in a
>> bureaucracy composed of professional relief-providers.
Joy responded to my statement as follows:
> I will freely acknowledge that there have been
> so-called ministries who have been found to be
> fraudulent, and that it is very wise to be careful
> in considering giving to any ministering organization.
> But I don't consider money given to support truly
> Christian missionaries who provide relief for starving
> and abused people to be money that is spent
> unwisely, or in vain. That is like saying that the people
> who are right there, helping the people, and the people in
> the office who make this system work, are not working
> for God, and are not worthy of hire.
Plesion responds:
We have missionaries in foreign assignments who spiritually and morally educate those who are willing to be taught. They also educate them in matters of physical hygiene and health, e.g., how to use locally available vegetables--sometimes ignored through the populace's ignorance in some countries--so as to stave off preventable malnutrition-caused diseases. They help those families who respond to the preaching of God's Kingdom to get the necessities they need. If we are not referring to a disaster area (e.g., famine stricken areas in Ethiopia), but we are talking instead about certain other cultures where there is addiction to betel nut, opium, tobacco, cocaine, alcohol . . . or we are referring to cultures steeped in expensive involvement in spiritistic practices, then when any of those people hear the Word of God with joy and thanksgiving, they become ones freeing themselves from harmful, hardship-working ignorance and abusive habits. It would be a misdirection of limited resources to give provender to those who manifest hostility to God's people and who refuse to respond to the Good News so as to render thanksgiving in a way acceptable to God.
Of course, humanitarian gestures in the face of disaster are for the purpose of helping the recipient(s) return as quickly as possible to a measure of normalcy in their lives. Until then, it is understandable that an unbelieving population afflicted by disastrous circumstances will not be in a mood especially given over to meditating on a spiritual message designed to help them come to repentance towards God. True Christians who have rendered humanitarian assistance and who will be around after a measure of normalcy has returned will be in position to bear witness to God's Word, and honest-hearted ones may recall that Jehovah's Witnesses were present to do what they could to offer humanitarian assistance freely--unconditionally.
Subj: To Ilvu pt 2
Date: 97-05-03 01:11:05 EDT
From: Plesion
What, though, if the disaster is manmade (war, war-induced famine and diseases)? If it is a long-term disaster (e.g., famine and shattered economies), then Jehovah's Witnesses in those afflicted areas have a God-given right to expect their spiritual brothers to organize an on-going relief ministry. (Such a ministry has been operational for Bosnian Witnesses, Herzegovinian Witnesses, Rwandan Witnesses in Mozambique refugee camps, etc; this sort of ministry is not accomplished by organizing merely a one-shipment transport and disbursement of material necessities.) Much money is required to purchase the things needed, but no salaries are paid anyone involved in these efforts, because many different volunteers from among the Witnesses make all of it possible. So, 100 percent of all funds contributed for a specific physical relief ministry go to that relief effort.
But as stated, our afflicted Witness friends have a right to expect that their non-afflicted brothers should contribute sufficient funds or materiel so as to make possible that the afflicted ones get all that they need. Suppose that Witnesses not afflicted were to throw their funds in with a "Christian" relief ministry (e.g., World Vision)--even supposing for a moment that there were nothing spiritually wrong with such an alliance--, we still should ask, "Does a history of the World Vision's efforts show that they are funded well enough to give all that is needed to all that they intend to help?" I believe that the swollen bellies that continually play across our TV screens are ample proof that the entire population of the ones whom World Vision wants to help--intends to help--have yet to receive help sufficient to their needs, and that is why we continue to see the swollen bellies and emaciated limbs of famine victims. Well, we Witnesses cannot throw our funds into anything that cannot guarantee that our Christian brothers and sisters will get 100 percent of all contributions, and we have yet to come up short in afflicted areas where we can operate and where opposing armies have ceased to block our shipments. Yes, in some places opposing armies have admitted that they had our convoys in their artillery sights; still, in those cases we have managed to get shipments through with God Jehovah's intervention. We have a formula that works with God's blessings on it. We are not about to change it now! We will not share our resources with an organization we have every reason for mistrusting its motives. No, not for a moment is it at all conscientious and moral that someone should siphon off any part of funds given to some ministry in order to pay salaries of professional relief providers. It amounts to taxing--charging an interest, as it were,--against the victims who already are not getting all that they need. (Compare Exodus 22:25; Lev 25:37 for how God must view any of His people who would do such a thing.) If the relief providers need something to eat, it should be given out of the surplus of those who are receiving the contributed provender--but when has there been such a surplus?--or paid out of funds not at all connected with a fund specially created out of contributions solicited for a relief ministry. Such an abuse is to tax those who should get 100% of all that is contributed with them especially in mind.
Subj: To Ilvu pt 3
Date: 97-05-03 01:11:42 EDT
From: Plesion
So, on the principle that the five wise virgins enunciated in one of Jesus' parables, we cannot meld our contributions in with World Vision's funds as perhaps there would no longer be enough for us (our friends). Our friends in the afflicted areas have a right to expect better. Also, the World Vision has a religious agenda. Its missionaries teach what they believe the Bible says about Jesus Christ, his Father, and the Kingdom of God. We cannot let them use any percentage of our funds to teach a suffering people blasphemous lies against God's character. God does not overlook such lawlessness just because those who teach blasphemous things against God point to their "powerful works" and aver to Jesus' face, as it were, that such works are proof that they have obeyed Jesus' Lordship over them.
Joy writes:
> These people are serving God, and are worthy of our
> support – they being in God's service.
>
> Paul received money from God's people that supported
> his ministry. In Phil 4:16-19, Paul states:
>
> "for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me
> aid again and again when I was in need. Not that I am
> looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be
> credited to your account. I have received full
> payment and even more: I am amply supplied, now
> that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts
> you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an
> acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God."
Plesion responds:
Paul did not allocate to his personal use any part of the relief-ministry fund created according to his counsel at 1 Cor 16:2. Your equating what Paul received from a special gift got together just for his needs . . . your equating that with what ministers for World Vision do (when they take part of the contributions given to a relief-ministry fund and use that part for their salaries) is gross error! Your example is not--repeat not (for emphasis)--at all Scriptural.
Joy asks:
> When you give money in the box at your Kingdom
> Hall, where does this money go? What, exactly, is the
> money used to support? Is it only used for the cost
> of paper and printing?
Subj: To Ilvu pt 3
Date: 97-05-03 01:12:20 EDT
From: Plesion
Plesion responds:
The money from Kingdom Hall boxes labeled Society's Worldwide Work (SWW) goes to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. for the Society to use according to its discretion for meeting the costs in a number of areas that are all in one way or another connected with advancing the Good News. Sometimes congregations are informed that a special fund will be created--a fund for some kind of assistance for some our friends in some part of the world, and a congregation will send to the Society what amount(s) come by way of resolution and/or by placement of a special box labeled with the name of the fund on the box. The amount contributed is indicated on a special field on a certain form, and all (100 percent of) the money indicated on that line goes into that assistance program. It would be a violation of law regulating a corporation if the specially created fund should be diverted to other use than that special assistance program naming the fund. I think the IRS men know how to keep tabs on a corporation's books--even a nonprofit organization's, don't you? (Jim Bakker learned that, did he not? ) But the IRS has never uncovered any hint of scandal as respects how funds are used by the WB&TS. So much for the legal aspects. This is not to suggest that the World Vision people operate illegally. They may operate legally, yet not according to the high ethical and moral standards of God's Word. The WTB&TS and the WB&TS operate without any hint of any kind of scandal.
Joy next quotes my quote of her question to me, and then she quotes my answer to her question, the exchange being what follows between the plus signs (+) below:
+
>> Plesion:
>>
>> Joy asks:
> Do the local Kingdom Halls have food kitchens for
> the needy in their neighborhoods? Or for those who
> may come to the JW's for help?
>> Plesion responds:
>>
>> Paul tells us that the primary purpose of our
>> providing a physical relief ministry is that those
>> getting the relief are going to render thanksgiving
>> to God's name--and that is because we are
>> primarily engaged in helping believers and those
>> who are giving convincing evidence that they are
>> repenting and are turning around from their
>> practice of moral and spiritual badness.
+
Joy responded, but for the sake of time and space, I do not repeat her arguments below, but I respond to them as follows:
Joy, the balance of your material in answer to my observation made above never rose to sufficient demonstration of any model found in the apostolic Christian congregation as to when we may regularly offer material assistance to those whom we are bound to assist regularly for as long as their special need-creating circumstances, which are with them through no fault of their own, persist.
If you do not agree, and I suspect you do not, my efforts here and in previous posts are sufficient in my judgment to have given you basis for correcting your beliefs about the matter that informs this series of exchanges. I am content to let God judge between us in the dispute. I intend no further response on this issue.
Take care!
Plesion
Subj: To Ilvu pt 5
Date: 97-05-03 01:49:49 EDT
From: Plesion
Joy, when I stated in my previous post:
"Joy, the balance of your material in answer to my observation made above never rose to sufficient demonstration of any model found in the apostolic Christian congregation as to when we may regularly offer material assistance to those whom we are bound to regularly assist for as long as their special need-creating circumstances, which are with them through no fault of their own, persist . . .”
I do not mean that such an apostolic model did not exist. It existed, and continues to exist among Jehovah's Witnesses. It is just that the things you have written do not bear witness to that apostolic model.
Take care!
Plesion
Subj: To ILVU part 1
Date: 97-05-07 23:24:12 EDT
From: Plesion
Hello, Joy.
Joy asks:
> Are you saying that no special pioneer, no traveling
> overseer, no missionary, no Bethelite is involved in
> the effort to make it possible to provide for the
> Witnesses in these long-term shattered areas?
Plesion responds:
If they are involved in some manner in a relief effort, they are not using to their personal advantage any part of a relief fund that was especially created for the crisis at hand. The same cannot be said for the World Vision bureaucracy.
Thus can we SNIP your irrelevant comments about how Society monies are used from fund(s) for this or that purpose inasmuch as your comments have nothing to do with how a fund created especially for emergency relief is being used. I am amazed to see such errors in your posts, Joy, because you have a great deal of our literature and should know better. You do not really know what goes on in the WTB&TS though you would like readers to believe you are so on top of it all.
Joy asks:
> Another question for you: You state that 100% of
> the money donated for relief effort for the brothers
> in these countries is given towards the actual relief
> provided. Does the WTB&TS provide intake/output
> data on these projects? Are records kept and published?
Plesion responds:
Records are kept. They are required by law. The IRS men make a good watch dog as to whether or not any illegalities are afoot. There has never been any hint of scandal brought to light by any IRS audits. You may gnash your teeth over that one, and complain cynically how things ought to be done differently. But the WTB&TS of PA and the WB&TS of NY are fully in compliance with all laws that regulate a nonprofit corporation. And that has to do with any special funds set up, also.
Joy quotes Plesion:
> Plesion:
>
>> But as stated, our afflicted Witness friends have a right
>> to expect that their non-afflicted brothers should
>> contribute sufficient funds or materiel so as to make
>> possible that the afflicted ones get all that they need.
>
Joy responds to my statement:
> Okay, granted, it is commendable that the WTS is
> anxious to provide for the brother/sisters in these
> countries. And well they should provide for them.
> Christianity makes it a priority to provide for her
> own in these difficult situations as well. Does that
> mean, however, that it is wrong to consider the poor
> people around these brothers in these countries?
Subj: To ILVU part 2
Date: 97-05-07 23:24:54 EDT
From: Plesion
Plesion responds:
It is wrong to feel that you are just as beholding to each and every one of the non-Christian victims as you are for Christian victims, because if there can be no excuses offered--and there cannot be--for failure to bring to one's Christian brothers and sisters (who would otherwise suffer deprivation of material necessities through no fault of their own were it not for the efforts of fellow Christians) what things they need even should the efforts mean great sacrifice of our own material resources, then what excuses are there that might be offered for the failure to bring sufficient relief to all non-Christian victims? So, it is obvious that those saying that they are just as beholding to non-Christian victims as they are to fellow Christian victims are not acting in accordance with what they say, else they should have to live with just the bare necessities of life--and still would they see their non-Christian and Christian neighbors starve in some places. Is that how you and your family are living, Joy, with just the bare necessities because you are making so great a sacrifice in an attempt to show that you are just as beholding to non-Christian victims as you are to Christian victims?
Joy writes:
> Of course, our spiritual brothers and sisters are
> our neighbors. But Jesus said that it extends
> beyond that. He said that the Samaritan who
> helped the persecuted Jew (who was
not in the
> same spiritual family, and in fact, at odds with the
> Samaritan) was neighbor to him who was suffering.
Plesion responds:
In light of what I have written above, an application of the principle to love one's neighbors (note the plural!) as one's self has practical limits placed:
First as to how many neighbors can be so loved--can be so made the recipients of a love as materially supportive in its display as that which the injured Jew in Jesus' parable experienced;
Second as to priorities. The Scriptures have charged us to do good to all, but especially to those related to us in the faith.
So, we see both priorities and practical limits. We cannot set about to provide an even handed distribution of material resources to all victims Christian and non-Christian alike, as though we were equally beholding to them all and thus without requirement to discriminate, for unless we are able to discriminate on the basis of a Biblical principle, then our failure to do so would be one sure way that we should fail our Christian brothers and sisters and reduce our standard of living to something merely sufficient to what it takes to continue as a bread winner while all the other fruits of our labor are going into a program that sees all victims--Christian and non-Christian alike--of a long-term disaster as ones who must be treated equally in their receiving insufficient provender from a Christian relief ministry.
Jesus' parable of the good Samaritan has nothing in it about a Samaritan's setting up a ministry for providing necessities and rehabilitation to an open-ended number of victims suffering long-term disability because of their having been mugged by highwaymen.
Subj: To ILVU part 3
Date: 97-05-07 23:25:28 EDT
From: Plesion
Joy quotes Plesion:
>Plesion:
>
>> we still should ask, "Does a history of the World
>> Vision's efforts show that they are funded well
>> enough to give all that is needed to all that they
>> intend to help?" I believe that the swollen bellies
>> that continually play across our TV screens are
>> ample proof that the entire population of
>> the ones whom World Vision wants to help--
>> intends to help— have yet to receive help sufficient
>> to their needs, and that is why we continue to see
>> the swollen bellies and emaciated limbs of famine
>> victims.
>
Joy comments on the quote:
> You seem to be attempting to make World
> Vision the culprit. Making it their fault that
> there are still hungry people.
Plesion responds:
I have nowhere ever intimated that famines are anywhere in the world the fault of World Vision. I have stated that World Vision is merely a manmade attempt at solving the problem--and not even a moral one at that!--and even were it a moral attempt, it still should not suffice to rid the earth of famine victims. Your charge is totally baffling. You are capable of following logical argumentation better than what is indicated by your false charge. What provoked you to make it? I suspect you are made very uncomfortable with the coherence and Biblical foundation of the position that Jehovah's Witnesses take in these matters, and are wondering just how it is that your references to the Scriptures never really make the point you would like them to make. Let us set forth immediately below an example by using one of your references to the Bible.
Joy wishes to shore up her position with the Bible:
> This is what God says: (Scripture from NIV, YHWH
> substituted for LORD).
Plesion responds:
So, let us take one of the verses and see if it makes sense to use it to justify a relief ministry that makes no distinctions ever between victims who know God, on the one hand, and victims, on the other hand, who do not yet show any evidence of knowing the God of the Bible as He wants to be known. Let's see . . . how about your reference to Psalm 72:12-14? Yes, that will do nicely. It reads:
"For He will deliver the needy who cry out, the afflicted who
have no one to help. He will take pity on the weak and the
needy and save the needy from death. He will rescue them from
oppression and violence, for precious is their blood in His
sight."
Let us state a given here: there were righteous Israelites of old who wanted to be used as instruments in God's program for saving the needy from death. Then was that righteousness in part because they were regularly financing and provisioning fleets of ships or camels for the conveyance of provender to famine-stricken lands so that the victims, who did not know the God of Jacob, should be cared for just as much as if they had been needy Israelite worshippers of the God of Jacob while on their own soil of Israel? Or were there no famines in the ancient world that Israelites ever got to know about?
Subj: To ILVU part 4
Date: 97-05-07 23:26:08 EDT
From: Plesion
Joy quotes Plesion:
>Plesion:
>
>> We will not share our resources with an
>> organization we have every reason for
>> mistrusting its motives. No, not for a moment
>> is it at all conscientious and moral that someone
>> should siphon off any part of funds given to
>> some ministry in order to pay salaries of
>> professional relief providers. It amounts to
>> taxing--charging an interest, as it were,--
>> against the victims who already are not getting
>> all that they need. (Compare Exodus 22:25;
>> Lev 25:37 for how God must view any of His
>> people who would do such a thing.)
Joy responds:
> So, what is better, Plesion -- to give the
> hungry 85% -- or to give them nothing . . .
Plesion answers:
It is better to give them 100% and have World Vision funded by means other than by its taxing the victims by 15%. And that would be better for World Vision bureaucrats. They would be acting morally at least insofar as they would have ceased to tax helpless victims. (Despite your empty remonstrance to the contrary, we have very good reason to state that World Vision immorally taxes the victims it seeks to help.)
Joy writes:
>I will have more comments and questions on this when I get to
> the part where you tell me that Paul didn't receive reg.
> support from the early Christians.
Plesion responds:
I never have told you any such thing.
Joy quotes Plesion:
>Plesion:
>
>> So, on the principle that the five wise virgins
>> enunciated in one of Jesus' parables, we cannot
>> meld our contributions in with World Vision's
>> funds as perhaps there would no longer be
>> enough for us (our friends). Our friends in the
>> afflicted areas have a right to expect better.
>
Joy responds to the quote:
> God said that to give to the poor, is to lend to
> Him. He said to feed our enemies. He said that
> Pagans love their own. He expects more
> from His children.
Well, I think the principle they (the five wise virgins) applied is just fine. Well, let's comment on your response to my quote:
Subj: To ILVU part 5
Date: 97-05-07 23:26:50 EDT
From: Plesion
What He expects is that we help persons to respond to the Good News of His Kingdom as the only permanent solution to famines, and when any do respond, they get "houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, with persecutions, and in the coming system of things everlasting life" (Mark 10:30). That is truly helping the poor. Anything less than our offering the poor and downtrodden of the earth this assurance of relief now and of grander relief in the future is for us to have a misplaced and unchristian emphasis. It is to betray a lack of faith in the Kingdom of God, and betrays a lack of faith in Jesus' exercise of a dynamic leadership over his congregation so that there is sufficient material and spiritual help for as many as will respond to the Good News that is being preached by the Christian congregation, a congregation in which we see all the greatly diversified wisdom of God. And especially never need there be a diminution in the amount of spiritual help we may receive, though at the present season before Christ has come again as Judge, some Christians may experience persecutions and a consequent reduction--perhaps even a severe and debilitating reduction--in material necessities because God may allow persecutors to block shipments of material necessities to them.
Joy quotes Plesion:
>
>Plesion:
>
>> Also, the World Vision has a religious agenda.
>
Joy responds to the quote:
> Oh, I see. And the Watchtower Society does not
> have a religious agenda, right? I can see that this
> is the real issue.
Plesion responds:
In light of what I have written above, you can be certain we have a religious agenda, part of which is that we show men how they can have a share in all the fulfillment of Mark 10:30. Do you care to contribute to the next relief fund especially organized by Jehovah's Witnesses for (primarily) Jehovah's Witnesses, Joy? Or isn't it so that you won't because you don't agree with our religious agenda? To borrow your words, "I can see that this is the real issue."
Joy writes:
> Christianity is
not God-dishonoring, as you say.
Plesion responds:
I never said that Christianity is God-dishonoring. True Christianity is glorifying God, is sanctifying His very name, is honoring His Son, and shows the world a self-sacrificing love in behalf of the brotherhood, which is comprised of Jesus' real friends--those who obey him. Only Jehovah's Witnesses comprise real Christianity. Now Christendom is not real Christianity. One doctrine held in common by all the churches of Christendom is the doctrine that God knows an invisible church comprised in part from out of the members of the churches. That is to make the Christ exist divided, and betrays as false the definition that Christendom is Christianity.
Joy quotes Plesion again:
>> Paul did not allocate to his personal use any
>> part of the relief-ministry fund created according
>> to his counsel at 1 Cor 16:2. Your equating what
>> Paul received from a special gift got together just
>> for his needs . . . your equating that with what
>> ministers for World Vision do (when they take
>> part of the contributions given to a relief-ministry
>> fund and use that part for their salaries) is gross
>> error! Your example is not--repeat not (for
>> emphasis)--at all Scriptural.
Subj: To ILVU part 6
Date: 97-05-07 23:27:35 EDT
From: Plesion
Joy responds to the quote:
> Okay, then Plesion, please tell me where is the
> Scriptural support for the 160+million dollars
> that went to support your traveling overseers
> and special pioneers in 1996?
>
> Is it Scriptural for the traveling overseers to
> have a car provided for them? Who pays these
> expenses?
Plesion responds:
Why, Joy, what a wondrous capitulation to
argument ad hominem! You have no Scriptural rejoinder, so you will attempt to show that I am just a pot calling the kettle black. Even were it so, that should have to be small comfort for your position. But in truth, even your attention-diverting ploy is without substance.
Proof of it follows in answer to your question:
> Who pays these expenses?
Why, Joy, here is where we can apply the precedent made when, to quote you:
> Paul received money from God's people that
> supported his ministry. In Phil 4:16-19, Paul
> states:
>
> "for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent
> me aid again and again when I was in need. Not
> that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for
> what may be credited to your account. I have
> received full payment and even more: I am
> amply supplied, now that I have received from
> Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a
> fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing
> to God."
Plesion responds:
But nowhere did Paul take funds from the gift collected for the holy ones in famine-stricken Judea. (By the way, Paul did not instruct that funds be collected for unbelieving Judeans. You never bothered to tell us why Paul did not ask for a gift offering for unbelieving Judeans. Care to show us how your understanding of the Scriptures can allow you to make remonstrance against JWs, but inconsistent to that understanding of yours you do not have the same misgiving as respects the narrow focus Paul's relief ministry took when he was informing the congregations about the purpose of the relief fund he was encouraging? Please answer.
Joy quotes Plesion again:
Plesion:
>> Sometimes congregations are informed
>> that a special fund will be created--a fund
>> for some kind of assistance for some our
>> friends in some part of the world, and a
>> congregation will send to the Society what
>> amount(s) come by way of resolution and/or
>> by placement of a special box labeled with
>> the name of the fund on the box. The
>> amount contributed is indicated on a special
>> field on a certain form, and all (100 percent
>> of) the money indicated on that line goes
>> into that assistance program. It would be a
>> violation of law regulating a corporation if the
>> specially created fund should be diverted to
>> other use than that special assistance
>> program naming the fund. I think the IRS men
>> know how to keep tabs on a corporation's
>> books--even a nonprofit organization's, don't
>> you?
Joy responds to the quote:
> Again, I ask you... are records kept?
Subj: To ILVU part 7
Date: 97-05-07 23:28:14 EDT
From: Plesion
Plesion responds:
Why not ask the IRS if records and corporation laws are kept by the WTB&TS and WB&TS? Why don't you get a job with the IRS and come after the Society? And if you find dirt in the Society half equal to the amount of cynicism you display, you will pull down the WTB&TS single handedly. But in truth what you would find is a scrupulous adherence to Romans chapter 13.
Joy quotes Plesion:
>Plesion:
>
>> (Jim Bakker learned that, did he not? )
>
Joy comments on the quote:
> Yes, Jim Bakker learned the hard way. And he
> understands now, that he was preaching a false
> gospel. I love to see how God humbles the proud
> and teaches them to give Him glory, as He has
> done with Jim Bakker.
Joy quotes Plesion:
> Plesion:
>
>> But the IRS has never uncovered any hint of
>> scandal as respects how funds are used by the
>> WB&TS. So much for the legal aspects. This is
>> not to suggest that the World Vision people
>> operate illegally. They may operate legally, yet
>> not according to the high ethical and moral
>> standards of God's Word. The WTB&TS and
>> the WB&TS operate without any hint of any
>> kind of scandal.
>
Joy responds to the quote:
> If you look you may find that there are even
> questions about the operations of the WTB&TS. I
> am not thinking of anything illegal.
Plesion responds:
I don't know what you are thinking, but from material you have already entered in your series that forms the backdrop to my responses here, you have a very poor conception of how the Society operates. All that shines through from you is a cynicism probably borne of a wishful desire to have what happened to Jim Bakker happen to some officers in the corporations belonging to JWs. My advice to you is Don't lose any sleep while fulminating on your pillow over what you may take to be the presence of slackers in the IRS. I know I never have and never will lose a moment's sleep over a gnawing suspicion that the IRS might find some legitimate reason to prosecute any officers of the WTB&TS/WB&TS/IBSA . . .
Plesion
Subj: To Ilvu Again Pt 1
Date: 97-05-10 03:33:52 EDT
From: Plesion
Hello, Joy.
Joy writes:
> That is well true, friend, and I was not trying to
> suggest that financially-supported Jehovah's
> Witnesses even took one penny of money that
> was designated towards a relief project. The point
> is, that when JW's give offerings towards the
> organization, the money goes in many directions,
> and part of the money will go to support full-
> time workers.
Plesion responds:
Those full-time workers who receive some financial assistance are the traveling overseers, special pioneers, Bethelites, and missionaries. To my knowledge, such full-time workers are not involved in organizing special funds, nor are they involved in the logistical work of transporting and disbursing relief provisions. I do know personally some regular pioneers who regularly assist in Assembly Hall constructions, and for them each month a limited number of hours may be excused their shortfall for the number of hours that might otherwise have been expected were they pioneers not engaged in a Society-sponsored construction project. But regular pioneers receive no financial assistance from the WTB&TS.
Let us suppose that there are some special pioneers who are instructed that they may devote 120 hours to their participating some relief effort. They will "cost" the Society no more than what would ordinarily be the case had there been no need of some physical relief ministry. So, even if a fund has been created from contributions made on a circuit, district, national, or international level in order to take care of some crisis in which, say, a special pioneer is assisting, yet no part of the money that that special pioneer receives from the Society has come from the special fund that was created for the emergency. (But as I stated earlier, I do not know of any full-time ministers--of a sort like those I listed above--who are allowed to report any of the time that they spend in administering a relief ministry.)
The fund for building Kingdom Halls is especially instructive here, too. We have a box in the Kingdom Hall labeled Society Kingdom Hall Fund (SKHF), and any money put into that box is sent to the WB&TS of NY. The pool of contributions is available for congregations in the USA and in foreign countries so that a congregation needing another Kingdom Hall may apply for a low-interest loan. That money is used to buy construction materials, and to pay for labor that is performed by any non-JWs who, of course, would not be volunteering their labor. But no full-time minister from among Jehovah's Witnesses receives a thin dime from a loan made to a congregation from out of the SKHF, this no matter how many hours he may spend in his laboring on the construction of a Kingdom Hall. The same principle applies to any emergency-relief funds and supplies sent into an afflicted area.
Joy writes:
> I am only bringing out the point that many of
> those who participate in relief projects are
> supported in some way by the Society. And I
> further brought up the fact that as hard as the
> Society may try to avoid overhead expenses
> for relief projects, it would be impossible to
> carry out a task such as this without spending
> some money on announcements, and
> coordinating the effort.
Subj: To Ilvu Again part 2
Date: 97-05-10 03:34:39 EDT
From: Plesion
Plesion responds:
The crucial point is that no special relief fund is being taxed. No body is saying that World Vision workers do not need a wage for their work, but then that should come from source(s) other than from the contributions that were requested for the relief effort. Let a flat stipend be made to World Vision workers from sources other than their taxing a special relief fund for it.
Joy writes to ask:
> I am only wondering if you have any way to see the
> records on this.
Plesion responds:
The Society publishes a breakdown of contributions comprising the Society's Worldwide Work (SWW) fund. I trust these figures--I have no reason to doubt their accuracy.
As for money generated in behalf of a special fund--let us call it here SF --that is carried on the Society's books (because it is sent into the Society and so indicated on the original of a two-part form that accompanies and describes the money sent to the Society, the carbon-copy of which remains in a congregation's records), then the IRS can audit to its satisfaction and confirm the legality of the Society's disbursement of this fund. The Society's charter does not allow that any part of a SF may be siphoned off in order to supplement some other fund. It would not be legal, nor would it be moral. (A SF of a sort that appears on the Society's books may be the Traveling Overseers' Insurance fund, or it may be a SF for meeting the costs of getting missionaries back home for visits with relatives. A SF that is a relief fund for Witnesses in some afflicted area is, I think, not presently carried on the Society's books, because I believe those funds are presently supervised in their creation and disbursement by Witnesses who have ready access to the Witnesses living in some afflicted region.)
I say this to point out that it is not necessary that I know the names of those brothers organizing an emergency relief fund; I do not need a copy of the paper trail detailing how they disbursed the money. If ever there were to be any misappropriation of that special fund, it should have to be because policy was not adhered to, and such misappropriation could not implicate the WTB&TS. But any misappropriation of an emergency-relief fund should have to involve a conspiracy among several individuals for keeping suppressed the misappropriation.
Joy writes:
> The Watchtower Society has a lot of money that
> could be used in effort to help the poor, but it is not
> something that the Society feels is important. Why?
> Just because they can't help them all? Is that why?
> So because they can't give to all, they give to none.
> Is that it? Please explain this to me in terms I can
> understand.
Subj: To Ilvu Again part 3
Date: 97-05-10 03:35:16 EDT
From: Plesion
Plesion responds:
Can there be any greater work that a man may perform than for him to be engaged in mediating God's Undeserved Kindness to anyone, including poor ones (who more often than rich persons respond to God's Undeserved Kindness)? Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones who can help the poor who respond to the Good News and God's mercy to come into a real brotherhood. We have the only real brotherhood in all the earth. It takes eyes of faith to see it. If you do not see it, then naturally you are going to be quite critical of the work of Jehovah's Witnesses and the uses to which they put their legal corporations. God shall have to judge between us and those like you, Joy. As for what Alvanis has written, Alvanis suffers your same lack of faith in the value of what is being done by Jehovah's Witnesses, a people hard at work to help persons come to the point where they may make acceptable dedication of their lives to God so that whether rich or poor they may share in the blessings listed at Mark 10:29, 30. Your quote of Alvanis shows us that she is like you, for she too has no appreciation for how the fulfillment of Matthew 25:14-23 involves a great crowd (far more than 144,000), which is comprised perhaps mainly of earth's poor ones (cf. 1 Cor 1:26-29) who have been helped to make good on God's impartial offer of Undeserved Kindness extended them through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Joy, for the third time I have requested you to please explain how consistency in your criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses does not also snare the apostle Paul for his omitting to call for a fund that should help more than just the holy ones in Judea? What do you say about that, Joy?
Subj: Again, Ilvu . . . part 1
Date: 97-05-10 23:49:58 EDT
From: Plesion
Hello, Joy.
Joy quotes me (Plesion):
>> Joy, for the third time I have requested you to
>> please explain how consistency in your
>> criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses does not also
>> snare the apostle Paul for his omitting to call for
>> a fund that should help more than just the holy
>> ones in Judea? What do you say about that, Joy?
Joy responds to what she has quoted from me:
> Sorry, I didn't get that far in my response. I
> only had responded what I had time for. But I
> had previously mentioned a Biblical principle
> which I will bring up again on this.
Plesion responds:
2 Cor. 9:11-13 says: "In everything you are being enriched for every sort of generosity which produces through us an expression of thanks to God; because the ministry of this public service is not only to supply abundantly the wants of the holy ones, but also to be rich with many expressions of thanks to God. Through the proof that this ministry gives, they glorify God because you are submissive to the good news about the Christ, as you publicly declare you are, and because you are generous in your contribution to them and to all." 2 Cor. 9:11-13 NWT.
The clear understanding from this scriptural reference (together with others that bear on this relief ministry to the poor Jewish Christians of famine-stricken Judea) does indeed help us to see that Paul's concern was with "supply[ing] abundantly the wants of the holy ones"--note that no other poor ones but the holy ones are listed here--, and Paul was desirous that the holy ones of Judea should find fresh cause for increasing their thanksgiving to God. The Christians in Corinth are noted by Paul as not being novices to the matter of giving, for he says that they have been "generous in [their] . . . contribution to them [ = those Jewish Christians in Judea], and "to all." There is nothing here that needs to be read into the account other than that the Corinthians have been engaged in making contributions to certain needy ones on occasions (noun) other than what occasions (verb) their getting ready another fund (this time for the Judean brothers). But the one thing that lets us know that the poor ones to whom the Corinthians had been making gifts of material necessities were in fact Christians is that the ones to receive the gift "glorify God because you are submissive to the good news about the Christ." Thus we have clear testimony that the ones getting benefit of the relief fund were indeed none other than the holy ones. Paul is hardly saying that non-Christian Jews were already glorifying God in anticipation of their getting benefit from the obedience "to the good news about the Christ" being carried out by Corinthian Gentile Christians noted for their generosity "to all" other needy brothers.
So, we cannot even grant you the argument 'Paul must have had more than just the poor Jewish Christians in mind because he does not say that they were the only ones to benefit from this fund, and Paul could not have obeyed the Scriptures which enjoin us to care for the poor if he had had only Jewish Christians in mind.' No, we cannot grant you this argument because you need in part to pretend that you can proceed from a certain silence ('Paul does not expressly limit the fund's benefit to just Jewish Christians') when in fact there is no such silence at all, just as we have proved above that there was no such silence.
Subj: Again, Ilvu . . . part 2
Date: 97-05-10 23:50:38 EDT
From: Plesion
You will not succeed in making Paul mean more than what he has stated. But you have to try, don't you, because you agree, don't you, that so much of your criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses collapses if you cannot find that Paul must have had in mind a wider focus as to who all should become the recipients of the famine-relief fund--a focus wider than that narrow focus that a face-value reading of his statements gives us?
But let us proceed with more of the Scriptures. 1 Corinthians 16:1 says that "the collection . . . is for the holy ones." Now, if the fund were to be for poor non-Christian Jews in Judea in addition to poor Jewish Christians, then Paul's failure to use this additional reference (to the fund) as a reference for his widening out his scope or focus as to who gets benefit from the fund is now become even more an untenable conjecture on your part when you assert that, to paraphrase your argument, 'Paul nevertheless must have had a wider focus in mind for the fund from the start of its formation, but he just keeps on omitting to say it.' Worse than that, Joy! He also not only consistently keeps on omitting to give us the wider focus, but he states things that are incompatible with such a wider focus: he says things that cause us to infer just the opposite as to the scope or focus than that which your (Joy's) interpretation needs.
Your exegesis springs from a preferred religious view, Joy. It is not based on the Scriptures.
Joy writes:
> We know that the churches were following the
> teachings of Jesus, we can conclude that money
> was also given to the poor. That the poor here
> are not specifically mentioned does not prove
> that they did not give to them as well.
Plesion responds:
No, your argument has collapsed. See above for proof.
Joy continues:
> In fact, Paul does specifically mention the poor
> in his quotation of Ps. 112:9.
>
> In verses 8-9 he says: "God, moreover, is
> able to make all his undeserved kindness
> abound toward you, that, while you always
> have full self-> sufficiency in everything you
> may have plenty for every good work. (Just
> as it is written, ‘He has distributed widely, he
> has given to the poor ones, his righteousness
> continues forever....)’"
Plesion responds:
And in context of Paul's statements, there is no open-ended reference to all poor ones in famine-stricken Judea, but to Jewish Christian poor ones.
Joy writes:
> Do not Jehovah's Witnesses use OT passages
> over and over again to support their doctrine
> of the soul, and the earthly hope? Why do you
> not recognize the heart of God in His performance
> through His servant Joseph, where God
> specifically raised Joseph up to save many people
> alive? People from all over the world were saved
> through Joseph's wisdom and obedience.
There were many famines in the ancient world, Joy. (Cf. Gen 12:10.) Why did God not raise up saviors for victims of those famines? So, we focus on the Gen 41-48 famine and we see
why Jehovah raised up a savior in Joseph for those living in lands round about Egypt, and yet could let another part of earth's population starve without His providing relief.
Subj: Again, Ilvu . . . part 3
Date: 97-05-10 23:51:18 EDT
From: Plesion
Indeed, if there had been no family of Jacob needing preservation of "a remnant" for it "in the earth," (Gen 45:7), then were it a famine like all the other famines that come about through chance and unforeseen circumstance so that there were in it no particular outcome that was especially bringing glory to the God of Jacob, then the Egyptians and her client peoples would have starved to death as have countless famine-stricken victims before and after Joseph's foreordained presence in Egypt. Joseph's presence in Egypt has nothing to do with the kind of God your logic would give us, for your logic would give us the picture of a God who, in sovereign manner, intervenes in the affairs of a nation on no apparent principle than merely His interest to show Himself as One Who can do whatever He wants to do just whenever He wants to even though nothing need be different for that nation's circumstances than what has always more or less prevailed in the nations of the world. In other words, your argument makes no essential connection to God's working out His Kingdom purposes. Your argument fails to reveal that careful study of all the context for a Biblical event can show us that God never acts out of an attitude such as could give rise to the following statement: "Ho hmm, let me see what I am of a mind to do today; let me see if today I feel like saving from famine some nation this week although I didn't do so last week for the Mayans, and that simply because I was not of a mind to do so."
Joy writes:
> Again, I have given you the principle that Jesus
> described when He taught us that God makes the
> sun to rise and the rain to fall on the just and
> unjust, Jesus plainly and clearly taught us to
> love our enemies (Mt. 5).
Plesion responds:
Our love is complete like our heavenly Father's, because when God brings blessings to the wicked and righteous alike, He is making appeal to the consciences of men that there is a good God who cares for us. God now uses the Christian congregation to amplify that appeal because the mission of the Christian congregation has emphasis placed on what spiritual gifts from God are available to those whose hearts are disposed to everlasting life. The emphasis of true Christianity's mission is indeed spiritual, just as we see at 1 Peter 2:9-- "". . . YOU should declare abroad the excellencies of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."" For those who hear with appreciation, they find that they can stop being the enemies of God and of His Christian people. True Christianity cannot break apart the new, amplified witness that God will have those who love Him give for Him to "all everywhere" (Acts 17:30--"True, God has overlooked the times of such [pre-Christian era's idolatrous] ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent"). Those who respond to the witness that Christians give them are able to benefit from all that list that Jesus gave in Mark 10:29, 30 so that they are the ones finding that they are getting "a hundredfold now in this period of time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, with persecutions, and in the coming system of things everlasting life." Here, then, is what it means for us to be loving our enemies, and that is that we dedicate our lives to follow closely in the footsteps of Jesus Christ as we, like he did, put the emphasis on the preaching and teaching of spiritual values (Luke 11:41) and of the Good News so that any who respond to it can benefit themselves both physically and spiritually from the outreach of the Christian congregation. Anyone doing this work has nothing of which to be ashamed. Jehovah's Witnesses have nothing to be ashamed of in their bearing witness to the Kingdom of God.
Subj: Again, Ilvu . . .part 4
Date: 97-05-10 23:51:55 EDT
From: Plesion
Christendom has a false definition of "powerful works" because her churches know nothing of God's Kingdom, and can only put the emphasis on something that smacks of a "social Gospel." She says, "Let us save the world from starvation, and maybe we will so impress the unbelievers with our successes in feeding the starving millions of them that we shall end up converting the world to Christ, and thus will we realize the Kingdom of God among us."
Joy states:
> Paul quoted the OT that instructs us to feed our
> enemies. He said this in the midst of his instruction
> to love the brothers (Rom. 12).
Plesion responds:
And so we know even from Paul's own efforts in organizing a physical relief-ministry fund that he was not intending it to benefit indiscriminately all inhabitants of famine-stricken Judea, but just Jewish Christians in Judea. Indeed, in context, Paul's words at Romans 12:20 are no command for us to feed starving, chronically needy, emaciated, essentially harmless enemies, but is a command for us to show an absence of malice--that we purpose in ourselves no vengeance against our enemies who are hating us (cf. Prov 25:22). The enemy that Paul has in mind is one who has power enough to be wrathful and who has worked harm to us, and so Paul reminds us that we are not to retaliate against him. So far are we from it that if this wrath-displaying enemy should just happen to be hungry or thirsty on an occasion that we may witness--if he should just happen to be in a position where we can offer him some help--, then we are not to turn away from him in anger or in fear of him but we are to seek to show him how harmless we are by our offering him something of benefit to him. In this way we may effect a change in him from his being someone who was displaying wrath against us to his being someone who has been placated through appeal to what sense of decency may reside in him and was refined by our continuing to seek his highest good ("for by doing this you will heap [spiritually refining] fiery coals[, as it were,] upon [this wrath-displaying enemy's] head" so that you help effect a spiritual change (repentance) in him.
Now, the most that can be said about what Paul's words vis-à-vis the issue here (of whether or not we are to feed in a literal sense over a protracted period of time enemies of God's people), we can say only that Paul's words here do not rule out such a thing, but neither do they command us to go searching for victims of hunger or malnutrition in order that by the least thing of our feeding the hate-filled enemies over a protracted period of time it might be in and of itself enough to show them they should make needed changes in their personalities.
Joy writes:
> We have the example of Cornelius. He "gave
> generously to those in need and prayed to
> God regularly." And the angel said to him,
> "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have
> come up as a memorial offering before
> God." Acts 10: 2,5.
>
> Doesn’t this show us the heart of God?
Subj: Again, Ilvu . . . part 5
Date: 97-05-10 23:52:41 EDT
From: Plesion
Plesion responds:
We have no record that Cornelius made gifts indiscriminately to "the poor" as though he were making gifts of mercy both to Jews and Gentiles. Cornelius did not give indiscriminately when he was giving "generously to those in need" (Acts 10:2 New International Version). The Greek says that he was "making many gifts of mercy to the people" (poi-OON e-le-ee-mo-SU-nas pol-LAS tooi la-OOi). "The people" is a reference to the Jews, for it was from them that he had learned something about the true God so that he would pray to the God of the Jews and not to Zeus/Jupiter. Likely he had learned from the Jews how agreeable a thing it was in their eyes that a God-fearing Gentile should be making gifts of mercy to the Jewish people in imitation of even many Jews who also made "gifts of mercy."
[Excursus: There were Jews who had begun to make "gifts of mercy" without right motive of causing others to give glory to God, and thus increase thanksgiving to God's name. For them there was no linkage to the real gifts of mercy, which are spiritual values that should be in one, and the one possessing them should expound them so as to give spiritual gifts to others, for such are the real gifts of mercy, according to Jesus (Luke 11:41). Certainly Jesus' anointed followers should know how to give the real gifts of mercy (cf. Luke 12:33) because the object of their making such gifts to others is that they might become motivated and equipped to help God's covenant people.]
We know of another Gentile army officer who was making gifts of love and mercy to the Jews, he even having financed the building of a synagogue for some Jews (Luke 7:5). And so the same chapter of Acts tells us explicitly that it was to the Jewish nation--that nation was "the people"--whom Cornelius had especially endeared himself. And so conspicuous had become his making of gifts of mercy to the Jewish people that even two of his Gentile household servants and a soldier under his command were able to tell about how "well reported by the whole nation of the Jews" was Cornelius (Acts 10:22).
So once again we find that you have misapplied a verse from God's Word in order that it might seem to make your case.
Plesion
Subj: Responding to ILVU part 1
Date: 97-05-13 01:11:40 EDT
From: Plesion
Hello, Joy.
You quoted me (Plesion):
>> We have no record that Cornelius made gifts
>> indiscriminately to "the poor" as though he
>> were making gifts of mercy both to Jews and
>> Gentiles. Cornelius did not give indiscriminately
>> when he was giving "generously to those in
>> need" (Acts 10:2 New International Version).
>> The Greek says that he was "making many
>> gifts of mercy to the people" (poi-OON
>> e-le-ee-mo-SU-nas pol-LAS tooi la-OOi). "The
>> people" is a reference to the Jews, for it was
>> from them that he had learned something about
>> the true God so that he would pray to the
>> God of the Jews and not to Zeus/Jupiter.
Joy replied:
> I believe that Cornelius knew of Jesus Christ at
> this point, based on Acts 10:2, and also verse 36
> in which verse, Peter was speaking to Cornelius
> and his close friends and relatives (see 10:24)
> and Peter said, "You know the message that God
> sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news
> of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all."
Plesion responds:
But did Cornelius know of Jesus Christ based on his association with the Jews?
Joy continued:
> Please tell me, Plesion, were all of these
> Jews true Christian believers? Do you
> have any evidence of that?
Plesion responds:
Joy, what are you talking about? Where did I say that Cornelius was making gifts only to Jewish Christians? He did not know the truth about Jesus Christ's congregation, the new covenant people of God who replaced the old, Mosaic Law covenant people of the natural Jews. Very likely before his own conversion to Christianity, he did not make any gifts to Jewish Christians, certainly not to Jewish Christians
because they were Jewish Christians. (Until Cornelius' conversion, there were no uncircumcised Gentiles in God's new covenant community.) We have no record in the Scriptures that Cornelius was giving gifts of mercy indiscriminately to the poor from among both Gentiles and Jews alike. The translation you used for Acts 10:2 suggests that Cornelius was not making any distinction as to who should benefit from his gifts. The translation you used might allow one to infer that just so long as someone was poor, then whether Jew or Gentile, "Cornelius was making gifts of mercy to them." The text in context allows that he was giving "to the [Jewish] people," and does not state that he was giving also to "the poor" from among the Gentiles. That is to say, we have no record of whether he gave to Gentiles. He may have. Who on earth knows? But we know he gave to Jewish needy ones. And it was his concern and willingness to support whom he believed to be God's covenant people at that time, among other things, that endeared Cornelius to God. Very likely when once he had learned the truth about the new covenant people of God (Christians), he made the poor among them the chief object of gifts of mercy.
Subj: Responding to ILVU part 2
Date: 97-05-13 01:12:19 EDT
From: Plesion
Joy quoted me as follows:
> Plesion:
>
>> [Excursus: There were Jews who had
>> begun to make "gifts of mercy" without
>> right motive of causing others to give glory
>> to God, and thus increase thanksgiving to
>> God's name.
Joy responded to the things she quoted:
> Please remember that Jesus said we to let our
> light so shine before men that they should
> glorify our Father in heaven (Mt. 5:16). Jesus
> was not speaking of being a light to believers
> here, but to unbelievers. And why? So that
> they "may see your good deeds and praise
> your Father in heaven." Giving gifts of mercy
> to the poor (unbelievers) is a way of doing
> good deeds before them, for the purpose of
> bringing praise (through them) to the Father.
Plesion responds:
And let us be sure to define "gifts of mercy" as did Jesus in Luke 11:41. Jehovah's Witnesses do this. The churches of Christendom have no clean standing with God because of the prevalence of nationalism, tribalism, and, sexual immorality. Why, even some of her missionaries turn a blind eye to polygamy in some of the African countries where they serve! Now, where this takes place, we certainly have no real gifts of mercy being given out, do we? Such "gifts of mercy" are not truly merciful because those missionaries are allowing the polygamous recipients of their benefactions to continue in their immorality, they (the missionaries) never intending to teach that fellowship in Christ cannot be enjoyed by those who persist in polygamy. How do World Vision missionaries measure up in these matters, Joy? When they give gifts of mercy, are they real gifts of mercy because they are helping the recipients to come into fellowship with Christ free of works of the flesh--free of nationalism, tribalism, drug addiction, and sexual immorality?
Joy quotes me as follows:
>> We know of another Gentile army officer who
>> was making gifts of love and mercy to the Jews,
>> he even having financed the building of a
>> synagogue for some Jews (Luke 7:5). And so
>> the same chapter of Acts tells us explicitly that
>> it was to the Jewish nation--that nation was
>> "the people"--whom Cornelius had especially
>> endeared himself. And so conspicuous had
>> become his making of gifts of mercy to the
>> Jewish people that even two of his Gentile
>> household servants and a soldier under
>> his command were able to tell about how
>> "well reported by
the whole nation of the
>> Jews" was Cornelius (Acts 10:22). So
>> once again we find that you have misapplied
>> a verse from God's Word in order that it
>> might seem to make your case.
Joy responds to the things she quoted from me:
> I don't think it disproves my case, Plesion.
> It adds to my case. Notice that Cornelius was
> "well-reported" by the whole nation of the
> Jews. Were the "whole nation" of the Jews
> the early Christians or not?
Subj: Responding to ILVU part 3
Date: 97-05-13 01:12:54 EDT
From: Plesion
Plesion responds:
See above for how you have misunderstood my argument. And remember that when you quoted Acts 10:2, you used a translation that allows too broad a focus as to who received gifts of mercy from Cornelius. On the basis of the Scriptures, we have no record of whether he gave to Gentiles. He may have. Who on earth knows? But we know he gave to Jewish needy ones. And it was his concern and willingness to support whomever he believed to be God's covenant people that, among other things, endeared Cornelius to God. Very likely when once he had learned the truth about the new covenant people of God (Christians), he made the poor among them the chief object of his material gifts.
Joy writes:
> [I] do not support the idea of just giving out food
> indiscriminately, but rather, as I have stated, using
> methods with the goal of presenting the love of
> Christ and the life-changing gospel, this taking place
> by the teaching of the Word of God.
Plesion responds:
Well, well, well! Finally we have some common ground as to a matter of procedure and terminology, one that does not embrace a social gospel; however, we do not agree on definitions of the terms. And so you come at JWs with your set of definitions as to what you feel is "presenting the love of Christ" and as to what is the gospel, and as to what is "the teaching of the Word of God." Well, let us agree that if one's "methods" (of administering what he alleges to be the 'gifts of mercy as Jesus defined them') were such that even a billion persons were being helped physically--and only physically--, still it should not please God because the ministry is spiritually deficient, it not being an administering of the real gifts of mercy as defined by Jesus--and may well be spiritually and morally corrupt to boot!
Joy quoted Plesion as follows:
> Plesion:
>
>> Indeed, if there had been no family of Jacob
>> needing preservation of "a remnant" for it
>> "in the earth," (Gen 45:7), then were it a
>> famine like all the other famines that come
>> about through chance and unforeseen
>> circumstance so that there were in it no
>> particular outcome that was especially
>> bringing glory to the God of Jacob, then
>> the Egyptians and her client peoples would
>> have starved to death as have countless
>> famine-stricken victims before and after
>> Joseph's foreordained presence in Egypt.
>> Joseph's presence in Egypt has nothing to
>> do with the kind of God your logic would
>> give us, for your logic would give us the
>> picture of a God who, in sovereign manner,
>> intervenes in the affairs of a nation on no
>> apparent principle than merely His interest
>> to show Himself as One Who can do whatever
>> He wants to do just whenever He wants to
>> even though nothing need be different for
>> that nation's circumstances than what has
>> always more or less prevailed in the nations
>> of the world. In other words, your
>> argument makes no essential connection to
>> God's working out His Kingdom purposes.
>> Your argument fails to reveal that careful
>> study of all the context for a Biblical event
>> can show us that God never acts out of an
>> attitude such as could give rise to the
>> following statement: "Ho hmm, let me see
>> what I am of a mind to do today; let me see
>> if I feel like saving fromfamine some nation
>> this week although I didn't do so last week
>> for the Mayans, simply because I was not
>> of a mind to do so."
>
Subj: Responding to ILVU part 4
Date: 97-05-13 01:13:29 EDT
From: Plesion
Joy responds:
> You know, God could have saved Jacob's
> family very specifically, without regard to
> the rest of the world, but He did not do that.
Plesion responds:
You know, actually God did save Jacob's family very specially even though not specifically" (singly), and He did so with "regard to the rest of the world" (the Egyptian Empire). We should find that Jehovah God was interested to intervene in behalf of Jacob's family in a very special and memorable way because he was purposing that certain prophetic dramas be enacted and a record made of them so that eventually these should have their greater fulfillments both in events connected with a Greater Joseph (Jesus Christ) and in events connected with the earthly sojourn of the Greater Joseph's spirit-anointed brothers. (Compare Romans 15:4--"For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.")
Joy writes:
> Perhaps it is more accurate to believe that people
> in certain disasters are dying of starvation
> because Christians are not following Jesus'
> example and helping the poor.
Plesion responds:
It is accurate to believe that people in certain disasters are dying of starvation because God has not purposed to remove just yet all manmade efforts to solve long-term effects of war (disease, famine). However, when He intervenes according to His purpose with a solution that will eliminate all disasters and accompanying human misery, then is when survivors of the Great Tribulation will be shepherded by the Lamb of God to "fountains of waters of life," and then is when we will find no more attempts at a manmade solution (no more World Vision), for the Kingdom of God will be sufficient governance for all inhabitants in the earth so that racism, tribalism, and nationalism will not take root again to the general detriment of mankind.
Joy quotes Plesion:
> Plesion:
>
>> Here, then, is what it means for us to be loving our
>> enemies, and that is that we dedicate our lives to
>> follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ closely as we,
>> like he did, put the emphasis on the preaching
>> and teaching of spiritual values (Luke 11:41) and
>> of the Good News so that any who respond to it
>> can benefit themselves both physically and
>> spiritually from the outreach of the Christian
>> congregation.
>
Subj: Responding to ILVU part 5
Date: 97-05-13 01:14:06 EDT
From: Plesion
Joy responded to things she quoted from Plesion:
> Christ taught us to do both. To teach and
> preach the gospel, and to feed our enemy,
> our neighbor, and our brother. I have used
> sufficient Scripture to show this.
Plesion responds:
Joy, you failed to make a case (out of Paul's involvement with a relief-ministry fund for Jewish Christians in the Judean famine) to the effect that we supposedly have in his involvement a model in the Scriptures which should show us that it is God's will that Christians should devote themselves to putting into effect a physical relief ministry (for dealing with certain long-term disasters such as AIDS epidemics in some African regions, famines, and the needs of war-displaced populations) that has Christians involved in an effort at trying to solve the problem for all afflicted ones. The only program that God has promised to back with holy spirit for a sure solution to all societal evils is that of His Son's Messianic Kingdom rule. And you can be sure that true Christians would never seek to support themselves by taxing any part of a relief fund generated for the purpose of relieving primarily the distress of true Christians who may be suffering from whatever kind of disaster has come their way.
Joy quoted me:
>Plesion
>
>> And let us be sure to define "gifts of mercy" as
>> did Jesus in Luke 11:41. Jehovah's Witnesses
>> do this.
>
Joy responded:
> Plesion, I believe that if you limit "gifts of
> mercy" to the inner quality that Jesus
> referred to in Luke 11:41, you are not
> considering the whole of the Scriptures.
> You are guilty of taking out the part that
> you want to believe, and ignoring many
> Scriptures, and other Scriptural principles.
My point in reminding us to make sure that the "gifts of mercy" are defined as Jesus defined them is indeed a reminder that true spiritual values are to be emphasized at the time the recipient is being helped. And thus my reason for attacking the "methods" of some missionaries in Christendom who imagine that they are bringing gifts of mercy to the physically needy and who, as they observe the improvements in the physical stamina of the recipients, never seem to get around to teaching the victims true spiritual and moral values based on God's Word, for the recipients may indeed embrace the missionaries' teachings about Christ Jesus, but have yet to be taught that polygamy is wrong. For a fact Presbyterian missionaries have made their peace with polygamy that is deeply rooted in many African cultures. Again I ask you: Has World Vision made its peace, too, with polygamy whereby any of its missionaries may accept into Christian fellowship with themselves victims they have helped to believe in the missionaries' God-man Jesus, but who are not taught how to repent polygamy? (And then there is the matter of tribalism which lies at the base of so many violent conflicts among some of the African cultures.) So, if the missionaries of the mainline denominations help a billion persons improve their physical stamina yet that billion persons are not being taught how to repent certain works of the flesh, then those missionaries never gave out real gifts of mercy, did they, Joy?
Take care!
Plesion
Subj: Joy, You quickly forgot? pt1
Date: 97-05-14 14:37:56 EDT
From: Plesion
Hello, Joy.
Joy quotes my words:
>> My point in reminding us to make sure that the
>> "gifts of mercy" are defined as Jesus defined
>> them is indeed a reminder that true spiritual
>> values are to be emphasized at the time the
>> recipient is being helped.
Joy comments on the quoted material from me:
> But all along, you have been saying that the
> "recipient" must be a brother, and not an
> unbeliever, except in disaster situations.
Plesion responds:
Not so! How quickly--conveniently?--you forget. You might do me the favor of reviewing my posts from time to time, or else, if you do not have them, asking for clarification instead of pontificating from faulty memory. Here is what I said about what our missionaries do in places where there is poverty and poor hygiene and malnutrition-caused diseases in the population:
> Subj: To Ilvu pt 1
> Date: 97-05-03 01:10:21 EDT
> From: Plesion
>
>> Hello, Joy.
>....
>
> Plesion responds:
>
>> We have missionaries in foreign assignments who
>> spiritually and morally educate those who are
>> willing to be taught. They also educate them in
>> matters of physical hygiene, e.g., how to use
>> locally available vegetables--sometimes
>> ignored through the populace's ignorance in
>> some countries--so as to stave off preventable
>> malnutrition-caused diseases. They help those
>> families who respond to the preaching of God's
>> Kingdom to get the necessities they need. If
>> we are not referring to a disaster area (e.g.,
>> famine stricken areas In Ethiopia), but we are
>> talking instead about certain other cultures
>> where there is addiction to betel nut, opium,
>> tobacco, cocaine, alcohol . . . or we are referring
>> to cultures steeped in expensive involvement in
>> spiritistic practices, then when any of those people
>> hear the Word of God with joy and thanksgiving,
>> they become ones freeing themselves from
>> harmful, hardship-working ignorance and
>> abusive habits. It would be a misdirection of
>> limited resources to give provender to those
>> who manifest hostility to God's people and
>> who refuse to respond to the Good News so as
>> to render thanksgiving in a way acceptable to God.
Joy asks:
> Are you now saying that the methods of
> Compassion Intl., World Relief and World
> Vision are acceptable because they put primary
> importance on personal holiness, and teach their
> recipients the same, in their act of giving?
Subj: Joy, you quickly forgot? pt2
Date: 97-05-14 14:38:38 EDT
From: Plesion
Plesion responds:
I know of no ministry besides that of JWs' who teach those listening favorably how to become part of the only worldwide brotherhood in existence. No wonder, because why would a ministry besides our own wish to teach anyone how to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses? :)
Joy asks:
> Now, will you say that it is good to help the poor
> people with the primary motivation of furthering
> the Kingdom of God? Helping the poor who are
> not already Christians with the intent of seeing
> their lives change and to see them become
> Christians, is not the same thing as giving aid to
> your brothers and sisters who are in a difficult
> situation. This is the position you have been
> taking, and the position that the WT holds.
Plesion responds:
See above my earlier post that answers your question here.
Joy added:
> Another thing I want to mention, that may
> perhaps give you a misunderstanding of the
> missionaries . . .
Plesion responds:
No, I have no misunderstanding as to how best to approach peoples of different cultures for the purpose of evangelizing them. The WTB&TS knows how to train true Christian missionaries. No, but the point of my concern is that a true Christian missionary does not compromise the moral and spiritual standards of God's Word: he does not wink at pagan fertility rites, spiritism (voodoo, juju, "roots"), ancestor worship, or polygamy.
Subj: Mercy or maudlin concern? 1
Date: 97-05-15 02:41:33 EDT
From: Plesion
Hello, Joy.
Joy announces wherein she needs clarification:
> I will comment on the sentence that perhaps
> made me misunderstand you, and feel free to
> correct me if I am wrongly judging your
> organization:
Then Joy quotes the sentence from me that gives her concern with the position of Jehovah's Witnesses:
> You [(Plesion)] said:
>
>> They help those families who respond to the
>> preaching of God's Kingdom to get the necessities
>> they need.
>
Joy responds:
> So... is this not giving help to those you consider
> a brother and sister?
Plesion responds:
No, they are not brothers and sisters until they are baptized into the Christian congregation. But what I am about to say does not play itself out only in foreign mission fields, but also for the benefit of poverty-stricken homes in this country, too.
If we go to the door of someone who is in need, and we begin sharing the Good News and we are not turned away but are given a hearing ear, then things begin moving very quickly for the physical and spiritual benefit of the meek and teachable family. Contrary to what you stated, we do not wait until they have begun to attend five meetings a week; indeed, they may not attend any meetings at the Kingdom Hall for several weeks. Eventually they will if they continue to show appreciation for what they are learning. But a poverty-stricken family studying with a Witness will find that the Witness is doing much to help that family. For an example, it may mean--and especially may this be the case in poverty-stricken countries--that the Witness circulates information among the Witnesses in the congregation, the Witness letting it be known that an interested family is in need of groceries, clothing, heating fuel. We have made gifts of these things to several very poor but genuinely interested families local to my area. We have inquired of local DSS officials as to what is being done or may be done by DSS in behalf of the family. And quickly the poor family is educated to the standards of God's Word so that financially crushing and physically debilitating works of the flesh--if present--are soon taken away from their lives, if they have been present in their lives.
Subj: Mercy or maudlin concern? 2
Date: 97-05-15 02:42:16 EDT
From: Plesion
To be sure, such assistance that we are "talking about" here is very personalized and conditional on discoverability of some level of genuine interest in our Kingdom message, an interest that is progressively blessed as the interest grows more and more until there is real desire in the student to do unreservedly God's will. Those making this progress to the point of dedication (disowning one's self) are the ones who finally have come to where they are benefiting from the things that Jesus promised in Mark 10:29, 30. Thus Jesus does not show us that the poor are being systematically helped by his disciples until there is definitely genuine desire on the part of a poor person that he live according to all the counsels of God's Word. You have failed to show that the Scriptures enjoin us to systematically sustain material assistance in behalf of those who show Jesus' disciples that they were pretending to be interested in the Good News, but are not really interested in applying all the counsels of God's Word. Jesus in Matthew 13:15 may be paraphrased this way:
For the heart of this [unresponsive] people [hearing
the Good News] has grown unreceptive, and with their
ears they have heard without response, and they
have shut their eyes that they might never see with
their eyes and hear with ears and get the sense of it
with their hearts and turn back [so that conditional
upon that repentance and conversion] I [may] heal
them [of their physical and spiritual needs].
Now, I will tell you a true story. We (my family) got a call from a Baptist woman who said that a poor family of Jehovah's Witnesses was living in a tent on the far side of her many-acres property, they living down by a creek! It was cold weather, too. She said the man was difficult to reason with, and that she was going to call the police and have them forcibly removed from her property. Well, of course we want to know what are the facts. And so we locate the man and his common-law "wife" (as it turns out). She had been raised in a family of Witnesses, but rebelled, turned to drugs and ran away from home in her late teens. Now she was pregnant, in her early twenties, and was living with this drug-abusing, paranoid man. She was not and never had been one of Jehovah's Witnesses, but she seemed to like to tell her (false) "story" about how her Witness parents had mistreated her. We contacted her parents and money was raised to get them out of a tent. Next, we paid a visit in their home. Now, they owe their presence in a heated home to Witnesses whom they have disparaged! (We got back to the Baptist lady to explain that the family was not nor ever had been JWs, but that her parents had been. In the meantime the Baptist lady had paid a visit out of concern, she says. But she was so rebuffed by the mentally ill man that she said we should not give them another penny.) Frankly, we gave help on the slimmest basis that the woman told her mother and father that she wanted to "come back to the truth." But her stupid "husband" (boyfriend named Mitchell O.) began to rant and rave at us JWs, and to say that we should quit talking the Bible, and just give them money without any more "talk about the Bible." He was more interested in hard cash instead of heating fuel, shelter, and groceries. Wonder why? :( Well, when it becomes apparent that ones we try to help will not make honest effort to use Bible counsel to improve themselves, then we are not duty bound to support their practices of works of the flesh.
Subj: Mercy or maudlin concern? 3
Date: 97-05-15 02:42:56 EDT
From: Plesion
Our last act in behalf of the needy family mentioned in the previous paragraph was to speak to a lady at DSS whom I know. We explained our concern that the young woman was pregnant, may be on drugs, was living with an unstable, drug-abusing man and father of her unborn baby. Surprise! Surprise! DSS helped by getting them into yet another place--an apartment in a housing project, got them food stamps, and other things. If I know Mitchell, he sold the food stamps for drug money. Even before the baby was born, they moved away into another community. I do not know what ever became of the family, but according to the Witness parents of the young woman, as far as they knew, their immoral daughter never did anything about straightening out her life, for it is unthinkable that she ever straightened her life out and yet remained so mean-spirited against her parents.
Joy, would you say that the family I referred to above fell into the category of those mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 13:15?
Joy writes:
> I'm not trying to be picky, here Plesion, but I
> truly believe that we do not see this the same
> way. In Christianity, help is offered in Jesus'
> name, and many respond to this help, and are
> blessed in their response, and grow as Christians
> in what would be a previously unchristian
> society. A requirement of attending 5 meetings
> a week, and of distributing literature (other
> than the Bible) is not known in what I am
> referring to, and also is not required for the
> person to receive the help they need.
Plesion responds:
Joy, just where did you get such an idea that we do not help persons unless they are attending five meetings a week and are distributing our literature? I think you ought to insert a thermometer in your mouth and check your temperature. If you are not running fever, then I see no reason for your surliness.
But apart from your surly caricature of our position, you do have one thing right. We Jehovah's Witnesses find that your model for offering and sustaining systematic provisioning of a needy but persistently fleshly (practicers-of-works-of-the-flesh) family is not according to anything in the Scriptures--no, not according to anything therein! I believe that your essentially unconditional give-away program is borne of an unscriptural concept of how men are to appropriate to themselves God's offer of Undeserved Kindness mediated through the ministry of the Christian congregation, for your model gives every indication that it is borne not of what is in accordance to the dictates of God's Word, but is borne of what is in accordance to the dictates of human reasoning. Now, human reasoning often runs a gamut of extremes: in one direction there is the extreme that gives rise to persecution against God's servants; in the other direction there is the extreme that gives rise to maudlin concern for those who obstinately resist God's holy spirit. Jesus' words at Matthew 13:15 are free of maudlin concern, would you not say, Joy?
Take care!
Plesion
